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Why would you ever run Refresh over sub? Blocking Glare or twave or toxic from being used in the first place has so much more value than curing a status after it's been inflicted. If you sub on a status move, then you waste your opponent's turn and provide utility for yourself. Refresh at most puts you back into a neutral position from a negative one at the cost of giving your opponent a free turn. Paralysis is a death sentence for Salamence; Facade can't alleviate its speed drop + full para chances while Refresh won't be useful at all in most games and Mence probably gets KOd/damaged into priority range the turn it has to click Refresh regardless. Either way, S0A's original argument of "Substitute is a tool that Zekrom has over Salamence" is flawed and that was what I was trying to address.
What's wrong with this moveset? I genuinely don't see why those four moves are something to condescendingly address the way that you did. The basic gist of the webs teams I make are that Groudon and Kyogre are midgame wallbreakers while 1-2 of the remaining 3 free team slots are late game cleaners/sweepers. I assume you think Rock Polish or SD should be there over Overheat but in my opinion Groudon is too likely to take heavy damage while setting up (resulting in Eruption being weakened) for Rock Polish to be worthwhile on that team.
Why would you ever run Refresh over sub? Blocking Glare or twave or toxic from being used in the first place has so much more value than curing a status after it's been inflicted. If you sub on a status move, then you waste your opponent's turn and provide utility for yourself. Refresh at most puts you back into a neutral position from a negative one at the cost of giving your opponent a free turn. Paralysis is a death sentence for Salamence; Facade can't alleviate its speed drop + full para chances while Refresh won't be useful at all in most games and Mence probably gets KOd/damaged into priority range the turn it has to click Refresh regardless. Either way, S0A's original argument of "Substitute is a tool that Zekrom has over Salamence" is flawed and that was what I was trying to address.
Not running Refresh or Facade basically means you can't switch into Ho-Oh since you have no way of dealing with Burn. If you go Facade/Substitute not only is this somewhat pointless (do you want to take status moves or not?) but this also nukes your longevity, which is partially what makes Mega Salamence so good, that unlike Ultra Necrozma, it's actually pretty tanky thanks to Intimidate and the +40 Defense it gets from Mega Evolving, and unlike Zekrom, it has a usable defensive typing against Primal Groudon; defensive Primal Groudon is also harder to switch into since using Substitute when badly poisoned is a horrible idea. Also do you run Roost or Earthquake as your final slot (assuming this is DDance/Edge/Sub/x)?
Zekrom has the ability to OHKO Ho-Oh and Groudon after a DD at the cost of switching in on less, having fewer setup opportunities, and being OHKOd by the litany of ground attacks in the tier. On webs teams it's a sidegrade, not a must-have, and I don't think that warrants its current place on the VR or even B tier.
It still switches in on and abuses most of the things Mega Salamence does apart from Primal Groudon, which you just said isn't too much of an issue if you OHKO after a boost. Zekrom, again, only needs one boost to do a good enough job in the match so the idea it "doesn't have good setup oppurtunities" isn't that true. You keep mentioning its Ground-type weakness but what about all the Dragon-, Fairy- and even Ice-type moves Mega Salamence has to deal with in conjunction with Stealth Rock? Surely that makes it inconsistent right? Nobody is saying Zekrom is a must-have on Sticky Web teams and I don't think anybody has said that. It's just another option like how Mega Salamence is to hazard stack teams.
Dropping Dragon Claw means you need to lock into Outrage to beat ground types, which is exploitable with a timely tera Steel or Fairy or a switch into Zacian, NDM, or Arceus-Fairy (see replay 1).
This logic still applies to Ultra Necrozma and even Arceus-Ground to an extent with a timely Tera Dark/Flying or a switch into Arceus-Dark, Yveltal, Giratina-O etc etc.
As for the replay... this isn't that bad. You got rid of Extreme Killer (which is great for a Sticky Web team) and you would have been able to beat Zacian-C anyways if you didn't get hit by confusion. Tera Steel Giratina-O didn't do anything to you anyways (since it clicked Defog for some reason), get 2HKO'd by Outrage at that point, and it terastalizing meant it would've lost to Primal Groudon (btw Eruption Primal Groudon is fine on Sticky Web its just that Overheat is a bit wack cuz SD is better). This doesn't prove Zekrom is bad it's just bad luck. All of the replays shown are against HO teams which is Zekrom's worst matchup so it puts Zekrom in a bad light before the game even began. Also why are you using defensive Arceus-Fairy on Sticky Web isn't that a huge momentum sink like what's wrong with Offensive CM or another mon like LO Yveltal?
I specifically said "at team preview". You aren't seeing Ultra Necrozma at team preview; you're seeing Necrozma-Dusk Mane which has at least 5 viable sets that have different roles and counterplay. NDM in against Marshadow can set Trick Room, click Dragon Dance, click Knock Off or Thunder Wave, Ultra Burst and click Photon Geyser, etc. Hedging your bets is a lot more difficult against something with high moveset variety. Against a Zekrom, you know it's going to click one of five moves (counting Devastating Drake), and you can reasonably rule out 2-4 of them on a given turn. Ultra Necrozma is similar after revealing itself, but has the power necessary to justify this downside (alongside keeping a degree of unpredictability with its unrevealed third attacking move).
Spotting Ultra Necrozma from offensive or defensive NDM is really not that hard. Just look at the team. Offensive NDM doesn't fit on PsySpam or other high momentum HO structures meanwhile Ultra Necrozma does. Comparatively, Ultra Necrozma doesn't really fit on Bulky Offense and Balance structures meanwhile NDM does. The moves these two run aren't even that different, the only major difference being that NDM runs Sunsteel Strike and Ultra Necrozma runs Photon Geyser (and ig X-Scissor over Stone Edge sometimes even tho imo that sucks).
Why would you ever run Refresh over sub? Blocking Glare or twave or toxic from being used in the first place has so much more value than curing a status after it's been inflicted. If you sub on a status move, then you waste your opponent's turn and provide utility for yourself. Refresh at most puts you back into a neutral position from a negative one at the cost of giving your opponent a free turn. Paralysis is a death sentence for Salamence; Facade can't alleviate its speed drop + full para chances while Refresh won't be useful at all in most games and Mence probably gets KOd/damaged into priority range the turn it has to click Refresh regardless. Either way, S0A's original argument of "Substitute is a tool that Zekrom has over Salamence" is flawed and that was what I was trying to address.
Sami is right because Salamence doesn't really benefit from sub. The main source of paralysis is going to be from Zygarde which sub doesn't make a difference against. Zygarde would have to be chipped enough that it is in range of +1 Double Edge at which point it probably isn't switching in to begin with. Salamence can sub, but Zygarde is just going to boost with it most of the time, at least on that first turn, to scout for Facade. Even if Salamence runs sub it is just going to be fishing for a crit against a somewhat healthy Zygarde to begin with and the turns you spend subbing are given up by having to Roost more often as Zygarde just boosts alongside you.
Outside of Zygarde the only other somewhat common source of paralysis you'll encounter is going to be from defensive Necrozma-DM which Salamence can easily use as setup fodder with Refresh regardless of whether it runs Thunder Wave or Toxic. Even v Ho-Oh it is quite useful because it means it doesn't just phase Salamence for free. If Salamence has Facade it really wants to switch into Ho-Oh and hope that Sacred Fire burns. It is immensely risky to switch into Ho-Oh without either of these two moves.
Ho-Oh rarely runs Thunder Wave and the Primals do so even less commonly. Zekrom benefits from sub because the immediate threat it poses generally necessitates switching to Primal Groudon. In Salamence's case, Primal Groudon is usually its entry point and it doesn't really want to stay in due to the threat of Earthquake unless it is running Roar. The switch-in to Salamence is often going to Zygarde or Arceus-Dark. Salamence can actually trade with the latter if it is fully healthy since Foul Play doesn't OHKO at +1 and Salamence does 2HKO with +1 Return or neutral Double Edge after Rocks.
Edit: Mence is DD / Return or Double Edge / X / X with the x's being two of Roost, Facade, Refresh or EQ. Generally the third slot will be EQ, but if you're comfortable with your matchup into the steels it is dropable.
What's wrong with this moveset? I genuinely don't see why those four moves are something to condescendingly address the way that you did. The basic gist of the webs teams I make are that Groudon and Kyogre are midgame wallbreakers while 1-2 of the remaining 3 free team slots are late game cleaners/sweepers. I assume you think Rock Polish or SD should be there over Overheat but in my opinion Groudon is too likely to take heavy damage while setting up (resulting in Eruption being weakened) for Rock Polish to be worthwhile on that team.
That is a fair point, but if you're running Eruption Primal Groudon it should nearly always be coming in after Smeargle goes down or for free after something else does. The sub on Salamence was meant to be condescending (rudely so and I regret that), this was more bewilderment as I've never seen this set and was genuinely wondering why you'd run it. Double Fire move is a cool idea and I get it now that you've explained it even if I'm not a huge fan. If anything I think Rock Tomb > Stone Edge. I'm going to guess that this is 252 SpA / 252+ Spe (or at least no attack investment)? The reason I was a bit surprised to see Stone Edge on there was that Rock Tombs increased accuracy and the utility from the speed drop seems generally more useful. Without investment Stone Edge is a coinflip to OHKO Ho-Oh factoring in accuracy and it does enough damage that Ho-Oh is either going to be forced to either tera if it isn't grass, switch out, or be saced. The speed drop also gives Primal Groudon the ability to chuck out an Overheat before it goes down and can let you scout if something like LO Yveltal is running Sucker Punch or Knock which is pretty valuable information if you are playing HO, especially with Zekrom since Yveltal outspeeds it.
That is a fair point, but if you're running Eruption Primal Groudon it should nearly always be coming in after Smeargle goes down or for free after something else does. The sub on Salamence was meant to be condescending (rudely so and I regret that), this was more bewilderment as I've never seen this set and was genuinely wondering why you'd run it. Double Fire move is a cool idea and I get it now that you've explained it even if I'm not a huge fan. If anything I think Rock Tomb > Stone Edge. I'm going to guess that this is 252 SpA / 252+ Spe (or at least no attack investment)? The reason I was a bit surprised to see Stone Edge on there was that Rock Tombs increased accuracy and the utility from the speed drop seems generally more useful.
I invested 196 EVs into speed to hit 265 (1 more than -1 Eternatus) and 108 into attack (which gives a 75% chance of dropping max phys bulk Ho-Oh from full with Stone Edge) with a Rash nature and the rest in special attack. I really value the guaranteed chance (especially on a webs team!) and usually have enough investment to hit it on any non-defensive Groudon I run. I made that team in 3 minutes and didn't play more than 15 games with it so it's definitely not the best I have to offer. My opinion on Zekrom has gone up from using it, but I still think its place in the tier is too small to have it above B-. Especially if I'm reading the room correctly and it's decently likely for webs to fall down a tier on the VR.
It's been months since I tried building or using a webs team and I definitely feel how much harder one is to use without Xerneas. Having a dark resist, setup sweeper, Zygarde check, and decently fast hard-hitting special attacker consolidated into one team slot was invaluable. The closest to matching that description now is Yveltal, who has a significantly weaker STAB button, no way to boost its offenses other than tera and the meme hone claws, is weak to rocks, and isn't guaranteed to beat opposing Yveltal. Alongside that, Xern just felt like a much better dark switch in than Yveltal because it could afford to invest in some bulk due to getting most of the speed it needs from Geomancy (alongside the aforementioned rocks weakness hurting Yveltal).
Xerneas being banned has slowed down the tier while also giving support Yveltal breathing room to exist, making defogging significantly easier against webs teams. I don't know if Shuckle should fall to C+. That feels too harsh to me. Maybe B- was too low for it to begin with and B would have suited it better while Xerneas was around. I also might be massively overrating it as a playstyle in its current and former states.
It's been months since I tried building or using a webs team and I definitely feel how much harder one is to use without Xerneas. Having a dark resist, setup sweeper, Zygarde check, and decently fast hard-hitting special attacker consolidated into one team slot was invaluable.
Eternatus, in my experience, is actually a decent substitute. While it doesn't resist dark, it hits pretty hard, checks Zygarde, threatens all relevant defoggers besides some Arceus with the combination of Dynamax Cannon and Meteor Beam, and after the special attack buff and Tera Dragon, often wins a game in an instant if you run Modest. I can't tell you how many times Eternatus has singlehandedly won me the game.
S-[4] -> S-[2] A[2] ->A+[3] A[4] -> A[2] A-[1] -> A[4] A-[2] -> A[5] A-[3] -> A-[1] B+ -> A-[2] B+ -> A-[3] B -> A-[4] B -> B+ B -> B+ B -> B+ B- -> B B- -> B C+ -> B- B- -> B C+ -> B- C+ -> B- C -> C+ C -> C+ C -> C+ C- -> C+ C- -> C+ D -> C UR -> C
S-[2]->S-[4] A[5] ->A-[5] A-[4] -> B+ A-[5] -> B+ A-[6] -> B+ B+ -> B- B -> C+ B -> C+ B -> D B- -> C C+ -> C C+ -> C- C+ -> UR C -> D C -> D C -> C- C -> C- C -> UR C -> UR C- -> D C- ->UR C- ->UR
If you have any question, feel free to ask me or Bobsican here or on Discord. Full slate here.
One of the things I enjoy reading whenever a new VR slate is released is voters weighing in on why they voted for certain mons to rise or fall. Now that I'm voting I'll do the same for all 0.5 people that are interested in what I have to say. Talking about the metagame is always fun! I won't go over every mon, but if there is something in particular you'd like to know about feel free to shoot me a message on this thread, privately, or on discord! It probably goes without saying but the views expressed in this post are my own and not representative of any other voters. Lastly, I wrote this on 05/25 after voting and did move some things around before finalizing my slate. I've double checked to make sure that this reflects my final slate, but if I've talked about but some things may have slipped through.
/ Every voter has these as #2/3 and one can easily justify why they voted for one higher than the other. It just depends how one personally weighs different variables. Where I signficantly disagree with some voters is that either should be S+. Although I view Zygarde as slightly better than Eternatus, the opposite is a reasonable viewpoint even if it I disagree. The distinction between S and S+ for me is whether a Pokemon can fit on most teams (S) or whether you need a very good reason not to use it (S+). Neither Zygarde nor Eternatus rise to that level personally. I'd likely abolish S+ before moving either up.
I view Zygarde as slightly better than Eternatus because I value the consistency and essentiality of Zygarde more highly than the splashability of Eternatus. Eternatus can fit on nearly every team, but is often fairly droppable or could be easily replaced with something that fits better. Furthermore, you are often left wishing you had a different set depending on what you load into. These are issues I seldom run into with Zygarde, which is still splashable. Coil is fantastic into most things that arn't stall or psypam. The biggest drawback of the Coil set is how it is complete Gothitelle food, but so are most defensive Eternatus sets.
The only Eternatus set which comes close to Zygarde's level of consistency imo is Meteor Beam + Recover. In a lot of ways it 'solves' the main thing I dislike about Eternatus: its tendancy to feel matchup fishy. Every other set has a lot of matchups where they feel borderline useless into a non insignificant number of archetypes/teams. Specs is great into BO and most balances, but locking into any move v HO is often incredibly punishing and it is middling into stall where it can get things in via double switching, but that always comes with some level of risk and it will eventually bite you. Meteor Beam 4A is a better cleaner and sweeper, but worse as a breaker due to the precision it can require midgame combined with its lack of longevity and is mediocre at best vs stall. Defensive sets are great into HO because Toxic Spikes are kinda broken v a lot of HO structures, but can often feel middling into a lot of balance structures that have the longevity to eventually punish it with the right positioning via some breaker.
Meteor Beam + Recover has a lower ceiling than all of these sets, but a much higher floor. Its coverage is still immensly threatening offensively, even if it does miss Sludge Bomb at times while Recover gives it the longevity to be played much more freely and punishes bulkier teams that struggle to threaten it directly. It isn't going to break through stall by itself, but by the time it does go down something else will probably be able to easily do so. Eternatus is a mon that is better than the sum of its sets. It is a fantastic mon and if someone has it as their #2 I'm not going to argue even if I don't agree.
S-[4] -> S[3] I'm the highest of all voters on Yveltal, though most have voted for Yveltal to rise in some capacity. If it were not for the Meteor Beam + Recover set I'd seriously consider S[2]. LO is one of, if not the best and most consistent breaker which has centralized a signficant portion of the defensive metagame around itself. LO Yveltal pressures many utility Arceus formes to run a Timid nature lest they get shut down. Switching into it is a nightmare for nearly any defensive mon and many offensive ones. Though I'm not a fan of Sucker Punch, it is a great, if risky at times, anti-offence tool.
This vote is mostly on the back of LO sets but defensive and scarf sets merit a mention as well. They are both fantastic though not enough to bump Yveltal up for me. Yveltal is very close to that Eternatus level status where I'll consider some set at some point in the teambuilding process most of the time. Unlike Zygarde and Eternatus, I'm not confident I'd vote Yveltal to S in the next slate. It will likely depend on how prevelent Timid Arceus formes become and how the metagame adapts as a whole. It is a bit closer to Eternatus than Ho-Oh in my eyes at the moment so S it is for now.
S-[2] -> A+[1] Despite voting to drop most HO mons I don't think HO as a whole is much worse than it was a month ago. It is still a very strong playstyle which undoubtedly has many innovations to come. Zacian-C, while still a great mon, is worse in this bulkier metagame. It has a harder time finding easy entry points and doing its thing. Additionally, it had a pretty horrible showing in Trios. For the last month whenever I've considered putting Zacian-C on a team its flaws are more comprable to an A+ mon than S-. I could very easily see myself voting it back to S- in the next slate depending on how the metagame develops. At the same time I considered dropping it to A+[4] this slate.
B+ -> A-[2]RaymondRayquaza has been A- or the top of B+ since Koraidon was banned. I'd like to give Neon a shoutout for mentioning how much potential it had in the NDUbers discord after Koraidon was banned as I'd likely have overlooked it for quite some time otherwise. Band is a ferocious breaker and an scarce source of momentum in the tier while DD/SD sets are pretty good on HO teams. Extreme Speed might be the worst 'good' move in the tier and clicking it always sucks. I want to drop it, but at the same time nothing really stands out as a great replacement. DD sets are very good on HO and a bit underused imo, but don't factor into my vote (B/B+ set imo).
A-[6] -> B If we had ordered rankings for the B ranks this would be the top of B. I thought a lot about whether it should be B+ or B and ultimately building the MMY teams for Megas to High Ladder was the deciding factor. It isn't a bad mon in a vacuum, but I spent a lot of time trying to build MMY teams from scratch that I was unhappy with. Ultimately I ended up just putting it on earlier teams I'd made that it could fit on. It requires too much effort and consideration to build with to vote to B+. The Eternatus matchup is the only thing I like about it relative to other breakers and what prevents it from dropping lower. It isn't a bad mon, but nearly everytime I try and build with it I'm left wondering why I'm using MMY over some other breaker.
B -> B+ One day I'll spell this right on the first time or at least not have to copy and paste it. Alo is very good and very close to A- for me. After the last slate R8 and I were discussing the fish and I was asked why I didn't think it was B+ and I said I just wanted to give it some more time to see how it held up once the meta adapted to its presence. It has held up pretty well and I'll likely vote it to A- on the next slate, but I want to experiment with it a tad more. Side note, Giratina-O + Alo is amazing. If I was being less reserved and voting purely on potential Alo would be A-[3 or 4].
B -> A-[5] I've been hyping up Specs Lunala for a while now and this ranking is solely because of that. Meteor Beam sets are good on Psyspam, but godawful outside of that. The other sets are mediocre, incredibly specific, or just outright bad. I'm not a huge fan of Tera Fairy on Specs because it means the team is likely not defensively sound and doesn't have enough upside to make up for being a tera hog. Tera Ghost Specs is amazing and doesn't really have good switchins. The damage boost from Tera Ghost heavily pressures Yveltal / Arceus-Dark into recovering if they switch in on Moongeist Beam so it can still be clicked relatively freely. The biggest issue I see for Lunala in the future is how popular Timid/Jolly Arceus formes become in the future as it is the most affected by this of the mid speed breakers. If they do become signficantly more common than they are currently it becomes a B+ mon because it becomes more prediction reliant.
B -> A-[1] To get it out of the way: Shadow Tag is uncompetitive and should be banned. It likely won't be even if we suspect it so we play a tier where Gothitelle has to be considered in the builder if you're not running HO. Generally A-/B+ is around the dividing line for mons you're probably ok ignoring in the builder or weak to. Personally, that line in NDUbers is usually around the bottom of A- with Arceus-Water (arguably Lunala) and below.
Even with highly ranked mons, you can afford being a bit weak to them or specific sets and still reasonably play around a lot of them in game, this isn't the case for Gothitelle. Gothitelle isn't able to trap everything and is little more than deadweight v HO, but it doesn't need to in order to have a huge impact in the builder. It often only needs to trap one mon to enable something and can trap two. The targets it is capable of trapping are often essential for a team to function and builders are forced into lose-lose situations.
Making a mon Goth proof often makes it worse against literally almost everything else. Personally I've used Dragon Tail on Primal Groudon which is nearly always inferior to Roar and have lost many games due to misses and loaded Tera Ghost Ho-Oh v R8 purely for Gothitelle when any other tera would have been much better. Blissey is viable solely because it can hold Shed Shell. Necrozma-DM can do the same and still function somewhat well since it isn't staying in to get knocked vs Yveltal anyways and I've never seen Goth + Knock Ferro. It still would rather run RH, Leftovers, or some other item.
Yes, as others always point out when Gothitelle is brought up, it doesn't do much v HO, but it has 5 other teammates to work with. One can argue that a team that gets one mon trapped by Gothitelle is bad and they wouldn't be wrong. However, it is a tough balancing act because Gothitelle is an uncommon mon and these changes are likely going to cost you more games than you would win because Gothitelle shows up. This is a signficantly bigger concern at higher level play in tournament games than ladder. HO is disproportionately represented on ladder relative to its viability. In a tournament game Gothitelle is not only significantly more likely to make an appearance, but the teams it does show up on will be better built to take advantage of its trapping capabilities.
Uncertainties
There were a couple of weeks between when I posted my slate and when the slate and this has given me time to think about my slate. Some of these have resulted in changing my slate in minor ways (i.e. Chien Pao from C+ -> B-) and others a bit more signficantly (i.e. Gothitelle B+ -> A-[1]). One thing I've been unsure of the entirety of the time is the composition of my S/A rank votes. Other than the A- Rank, nothing has really changed too much (intial slate order was ). Below is an ordered list of everything I considered for A- or higher at some point, but separated where I think there is a somewhat noticable gap in viability.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
On a less serious note, if I were rating mons by personal use Arceus-Ground would be B. I don't know what it is about it, but I rarely feel able to fit it on a team and when I do I struggle to get much value from it. It is an amazing mon, just not in my hands. I may not use it, but I do respect it. One day something will click. It feels closer to A+ than S- though.
Contary to MMY, spending some time building Mega Salamence teams for Megas To HL has improved my opinion on the mon. I don't know exactly where I would have placed it otherwise, but probably lower in A-. It definitely isn't an A ranker at the moment, but it is better than I gave it credit for. Refresh sets on Balance / BO are underexplored/underused imo. I did intially have it at A-[1] but redid my A- ranks. I could see Mega Salamence going back to A in the future, but I could also see it falling to B+ even if I don't think it is likely I'd vote B+ on future slates.
I intially had Ditto in A- but changed it to B+. The mons I consider arguably A- or B+ () could constitute their own subrank. Ultimately I think Ditto can be a bit too inconsistent into some BO / Balance structures at times to put in A- currently.
My views on Zekrom havn't really changed. I wasn't a voter on the last slate so I'm not privy to any conversation surrounding Zekrom at that time, but I was quite surprised to see it remain in B+. It's a decent breaker and ocassional sweeper/ cheese option on HO, but not really anything more than that. I intially had it in B-, but dropped it to C+ after thinking about it a little more. It boiled down to Zekrom is exclusive to HO, which is fine, but HO is the one style where dependency on a Z move actually matters. Dragonium-Z is the only set that matters for the VR imo because the others are C tier cheese. If Zekrom was not reliant on the Z Crystal I'd probably consider it a B or maybe even B+ tier mon. Regardless, Zekrom is probably always going to be a mon that is more viable than its usage would suggest.
Underrated. It solves a lot of the things that HO players moan about. It isn't splashable by any means and is exclusive to HO, but it is pretty good on there. I perfer Substitute or Tera Blast Ground over Scale Shot.
It matches up well into Deoxys-S in the screens mirror and can get a 3rd screen. That is something, but mostly outclassed by Deoxys-S as a Screens lead imo. If it weren't for those two things I'd vote to UR it and considered doing so anyways. Its toolkit was much more valuable when it had Xerneas to abuse screens.
It has B- potential imo. C+ is fine for now but it is a pretty cool antimeta option that flourishes with the right support on fatter balance teams. I'm excited to see what the future has in store for Garganacl.
Last Respects is fundamentally uncompetitve. It is a shitmon that requires no to minimal skill and works often enough. Weakening its checks isn't impossible even if it is still fishy and somewhat inconsistent.
B- always felt a bit high to me but I didn't have the time to properly test it. Going by vibes didn't really feel appropriate.
I've never really understood whatever niche it is supposed to have and think it is D, but similar to Pheromosa going by vibes didn't feel appropriate.
Tested this a little bit and couldn't decide between C or C+ so figured abstaining was the best course of action as I didn't feel strongly either way.
I wasn't sure if it should be C- or D. Gholdengo definitely has a niche. Whether that niche of curbstomping specific fat Ho-Oh structures is enough to be ranked I'm not sure. Figured abstaining was the best course of action.
I can see the potential for C-. Traps most Eternatus sets and is immune to Overheat Primal Groudon. That is something. Similar to Gholdengo I wasn't sure if that is enough for Heatran to be ranked though I can see it fluctuating between C- and D. It seems like a mon someone will bring to a NDPL game and it will either do nothing or completely shut down a team.
Pretty much felt indifferent and had better things to do than test it. If enough voters thought it was worthy of C- that was fine by me.
It has a niche and is at least a usable and fun D rank. I'm not sure if it is enough to be ranked, but like the mons above I don't have a preference either way.
I voted abstain because I wasn't sure if it should be ranked or not and didn't want a D vote potentially standing in the way of it being ranked if my vote ended up being the difference maker. I mind it being ranked but C does feel a bit. At this point it feels a little silly to be skepitcal of R8 since R8 is the shitmon whisperer.
That is a mistake on my end since I did the changes. I thought I changed them to UR rather than D so consider them UR. There isn't anything changing with the D ranks
Now I'll try to explain the most notable changes/votes:
: As the metagame has been adapting a lot to deal with Primal Groudon, some of its sets have been losing viability to a manageable degree, and puts it more on the level of Eternatus, reducing the gap between its spot at S+ and S ranks, more importantly Eternatus has been revolutionalized in the last months with far more optimal sets that let it handle a good portion of the metagame, and can similarly fit any team structure with very minimal support, even making a good core with it, but the gap currently isn't sufficiently low to raise it per-say, it may change in the future, however.
: Not much has really changed for it, but as other stuff has lowered in viability, it kinda led to a chain of spot changes leading to such considerable rise, it does the same stuff as a wallbreaker difficult to wall with utility in priority.
: A ton of set optimization has been done lately, allowing it to perform its duties more easily while not being as easy to revenge kill, allowing it to raise a bit.
: Rayquaza's optimizations in terms of sets have shown their result, and now it's clearly competition for Mega Salamence, having multiple sets and potential utility in priority, pivoting, a free item slot and the capability to Terastallize, main reasons to use Mega Salamence instead are reliable recovery, further setup opportunities with Intimidate, and Dragon Dance ensuring a good matchup against fat and offense teams alike.
: Trapping has been finally explored and it has been found out that indeed, Gothitelle can come into walls such as Ho-Oh and remove them from the game to ease the work for a lot of sweepers, if anyone wants tiering action on Shadow Tag feel free to voice it in this thread now.
: Mega Salamence has been facing competition with Rayquaza as explained before, so it's more difficult to justify these days.
: Psyspam has been developing lately and turns out that enabling an actually usable kind of hyper offense earns it way more of an spot in the metagame, it still does quite little on its own and is exclusive to such structures, so similarly to stall it goes here.
: Surprisingly fat on the physical side, Blood Moon is a nuke even if it's budget Boomburst, and overall it can be difficult to take down for some teams thanks to Calm Mind and Moonlight, yet faces heavy competition with other Ground-types, most notably Primal Groudon, Zygarde, and Arceus-Ground, however, but still has a niche overall.
: Mega Tyranitar is a hazard setter that forces out Ho-Oh, Giratina-O, and hard-checks Yveltal, while also having utility in Knock Off and actual bulk, it faces competition with Mega Diancie at similar roles, and it has a lot of common weaknesses to overwhelm it beyond that.
: Combining those two as they are very similar, but basically face heavy competition with Marshadow, who does the same stuff, has a free item slot, and can Terastallize on top, Mega Mewtwo X just barely lingers on at the moment out of the potential to use it as a sidegrade base Mewtwo with Fighting STAB and not requiring to Terastallize for it.
: The accuracy of all the moves it wants to run suck and so it's rather inconsistent, and it faces competition with Eternatus at its role too, it'd probably be somewhere in A rank otherwise.
: Has four moveslot syndrome, as it can't run all the offensive coverage it wants to properly handle the metagame, so it requires being built around to make it work.
: Requiring a Z-Crystal to work is a major opportunity cost over the more reliable , is a bit too slow and there's a more reliable Dragon Dance sweeper in Mega Salamence.
: Does nothing but set screens, so while reliable, it's difficult to justify over Deoxys-Speed.
: This was a remnant from the Xerneas metagame, and it has been aging like milk as time went, as Volt Switch is blocked by Primal Groudon, and its bulk is worse than Zacian-C's, so it lacks a niche. it can't even be used as Trick Room setter as there's more reliable alternatives such as Cresselia and Hatterene.
: Just a budget Dondozo for a team structure that almost entirely demands Dondozo to work (stall), there's no good reason to keep it ranked.
: Its bulk is lacking even by NDOU standards, very passive, has no place in stall here, and for Magic Bounce utility you'd want to use Mega Diancie instead.
: Mostly outclassed by Ferrothorn, a neutrality to Fire thanks to its ability in Thick Fat, and semi-reliable recovery in Synthesis isn't sufficient to justify over the extra resists and utility Ferrothorn has.
: Tries to be a wallbreaker, can't even OHKO Ho-Oh with Life Orb Rock Slide, also has no bulk to speak of and so even though its typing is conceptually good defensively, its actual defensive utility is not.
: Also a remnant from the Xerneas metagame, it's forced out by way too much of the metagame, and it's way cheaper and adaptable to just Terastallize any other Arceus forme to the Poison-type if required at all.
: Trick Room in itself is niche, and thus being able to set Stealth Rock on Hatterene isn't sufficient to justify it, otherwise we'd have ranked Ogerpon-H long ago as it can do similar stuff and more.
: Its bulk is poor by the standards of the tier, and there's better walls, Spikes setters, and phazers.
: Got banned from NDOU, is outclassed by Necrozma-DM as a bulky sweeper, as Marshadow for a choiced breaker, and even Zamazenta-C if you feel experimental.
: Got unbanned from NDOU, is outclassed by Eternatus and Chien-Pao to be ranked.
I am here to do two things.
1. Grimmsnarl C+ --> B
2. Regieleki UR -->C-
I was already in the process of gathering replays to nominate Regieleki, as I found it was a decent alternative to Grimmsnarl. Come the viability ranking changes, and I find that Grimmsnarl was dropped. I find Grimmsnarl to be the best Screen setter in the tier, so I was surprised by this.
Despite its speed, I find Regieleki much closer to Grimmsnarl than Deoxys-Speed. This is because they share a very important trait:The ability to pivot. While Deoxys-Speed technically also has this option, it needs Eject Pack to do it once, which means it can;t run Light Clay, which is usually not a good trade off for being able to pivot once. I find the ability to pivot very important for a screen setter. Because you usually only have time to set one screen, switching out and into a disadvantageous matchup is very unfortunate, and can lose you a lot of momentum. While both Grimmsnarl and Regieleki can be blocked from switching by Dark types and Ground types respectively, the option is still invaluable. However, this is not the only thing Grimmsnarl has over Deoxys-Speed. First of all, its pivot option makes it even easier to set up. Since it shares Taunt with Deoxys-Speed, this means that Deoxys-Speed has only three things over Grimmsnarl.
1. It has Magic Coat, which can help it block Taunt and reflect hazards. The former hardly ever matters, since you will switch out after turn one, and the latter is not worth risking your screen setter getting KOed, unless the hazard is webs.
2. It can be confused with hazard lead Deoxys-Speed, but this doesn't matter, since that doesn't regularly come up in games.
3. It can Taunt dark types, but this only really matters against Yveltals Defog.
I'm fairly certain that I am missing something, because it seems to me that it's hard to justify Deoxys-Speed over Grimmsnarl, not the other way around. Anyways, now that we have discussed how Grimmsnarl is better than Deoxys-Speed, lets discuss what niche Regieleki has. Its pivot option deals chip damage and isn't blocked by Taunt, but that isn't the main appeal. First of all, if you don't care about setting screens multiple times, you can use Explosion for a truly unlockable pivot option that deals decent damage (not by Ubers standards, obviously.). However, the main appeal is very obvious. Rapid Spin. This lets you not have to worry about wasting a move slot for your other pokemon, and means you don't have to choose between a hazard clearer and a pokemon that would better fit your team, if a hazard clearer isn't convenient for your team. Is this enough to choose it over Grimmsnarl in most cases? No. However, there are definitely quite a few cases where this is desirable.
Anyways, can someone please tell me how I am wrong, because it seems so obvious that Grimmsnarl is the better screen setter. What am I missing?
Replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2137573588?p2 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2137569194 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2137561003 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2137531636?p2 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2133704427 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2138782502
I'm only speaking for myself and not other voters, but reading Bob's reasoning I'm going to guess that we view Grimmsnarl very similarly. I think in a vacuum the points you bring up are right, though they don't translate as well in game. One of the main advantages Grimmsnarl has over Deoxys-S is that it does have a favourable matchup into Deos-S itself in the screens mirror. Magic Coat v Taunt mindgames are what they are, but Grimmsnarl does generally have that advantage. The other main reason to use Grimmsnarl over Deoxys-S is its pivoting ability to bring in something and enable it to setup more easily via Parting Shot. This also means Grimmsnarl is likely able to set one more screen midgame which Deoxys-S generally isn't going to be able to do.
The ability to pivot is huge, but Dark-types are extremely common. I just took a look at the May 1760+ stats and well...Yveltal / Arceus-Dark have a combined 60% usage. This means that most games Grimmsnarl isn't going to able to pivot out and get in that mon to start setting up and blasting through stuff. Sure Grimmsnarl can annoy these two with Spirit Break, but then it is likely dropping Parting Shot which is one of the main reasons to run it in the first place and this wastes valuable screens turns anyways. Furthermore, Grimmsnarl can't Taunt either of these two and they both very frequently run Taunt themselves so they can easily just spam Taunt as whatever teammate switches in and deny them setup.
Deoxys-S is just generally more consistent as a screen setter. It can't pivot, but its Taunt isn't blanked by Dark-types and they have to weigh whether it is worth it to even attempt to Taunt Deoxys-S in the first place as that does have a sigfnicant opportunity cost. Importantly, Magic Coat also means that at worst both sides are likely to play with Sticky Web up in that matchup. The ability to fit Pyscho Boost also immensely helps against Glimmora as well which means you can potentially avoid a Toxic Spike as well.
To address points # 2/3 unless you know the team or it is incredibly obvious that it is a screens team you probably should assume that Deoxys-S is a hazard stacking lead. This doesn't really change how you approach it. Taken from May 1630+ stats:
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves
| Stealth Rock 93.994%
| Taunt 91.392%
| Spikes 71.971%
| Magic Coat 55.400%
| Psycho Boost 24.625%
| Light Screen 11.874%
| Reflect 11.665%
| Thunder Wave 8.789%
| Knock Off 7.207%
| Ice Beam 3.991%
| Other 19.093%
+----------------------------------------+
I think you really are undervaluing how much being able to Taunt the Dark-types helps. It means that Arceus-Dark can't Wisp your Zacian-C or Taunt whatever other teammate and the opponent is forced into an uncomfortable situtation. Using Zacian-C as an example, it can get a free SD since Foul Play won't OHKO at +3. So you either have a fully healthy Zacian-C at +3 behind a screen because the Arceus-Dark switched out or a low health Zacian-C because they decided to Foul Play calling your SD. In former it can live a hit from the Primal Groudon or Ho-Oh and trade with it, removing something big for some teammate. In the latter it is either OHKOing the Arceus-Dark with Play Rough / CC or forcing a tera which means that your Ultra Necrozma was just signficantly opened up. These sorts of interactions arn't possible with Grimmsnarl. Grimmsnarl is a screener that is good v Deoxys-S, but Deoxys-S is better v almost everything else. FWIW, my vote of Deoxys-S to B+ was entirely based around the hazard stacking sets and I'd rate the screens set somewhere around C+. I'm not particularly high on screens as a whole, but if I were to use them I'd go with Deoxys-S most of the time unless I'm fishing for some Bo1 tournament game.
Regieleki on the other hand has a couple of individual traits over both Grimmsnarl and Deoxys-S, but is far worse than either. I'm not aware of any plans for a mini slate anytime soon given that this was a full one, but even if there was I'd be very surprised if Regieleki recieved a vote above D. Again, in a vacuum, the ability to pivot is great, but Regieleki is almost never going to be able to do that. I brought up earlier how in practise Grimmsnarl is frequently blocked from pivoting, but Regieleki almost always is. Regieleki has no means whatsoever to harm Ground-types outside of booming and Primal Groudon is on most teams that arn't stall or pyspam. A lot of balance and BO teams will run a second in Arceus-Ground or Zygarde and triple ground teams do exist.
Yeah pivoting is invaluable, but when you can't actually pivot in most games it isn't. Sure Rapid Spin is something, but Regieleki doesn't have the bulk, even when assisted by screens to set them and spin. I'd honestly consider Tapu Koko as a screens setter long before using Regieleki. It can at least pivot with U-turn and remove hazards or chose to at least pressure the Ground-types with Toxic.
I'm only speaking for myself and not other voters, but reading Bob's reasoning I'm going to guess that we view Grimmsnarl very similarly. I think in a vacuum the points you bring up are right, though they don't translate as well in game. One of the main advantages Grimmsnarl has over Deoxys-S is that it does have a favourable matchup into Deos-S itself in the screens mirror. Magic Coat v Taunt mindgames are what they are, but Grimmsnarl does generally have that advantage. The other main reason to use Grimmsnarl over Deoxys-S is its pivoting ability to bring in something and enable it to setup more easily via Parting Shot. This also means Grimmsnarl is likely able to set one more screen midgame which Deoxys-S generally isn't going to be able to do.
The ability to pivot is huge, but Dark-types are extremely common. I just took a look at the May 1760+ stats and well...Yveltal / Arceus-Dark have a combined 60% usage. This means that most games Grimmsnarl isn't going to able to pivot out and get in that mon to start setting up and blasting through stuff. Sure Grimmsnarl can annoy these two with Spirit Break, but then it is likely dropping Parting Shot which is one of the main reasons to run it in the first place and this wastes valuable screens turns anyways. Furthermore, Grimmsnarl can't Taunt either of these two and they both very frequently run Taunt themselves so they can easily just spam Taunt as whatever teammate switches in and deny them setup.
Deoxys-S is just generally more consistent as a screen setter. It can't pivot, but its Taunt isn't blanked by Dark-types and they have to weigh whether it is worth it to even attempt to Taunt Deoxys-S in the first place as that does have a sigfnicant opportunity cost. Importantly, Magic Coat also means that at worst both sides are likely to play with Sticky Web up in that matchup. The ability to fit Pyscho Boost also immensely helps against Glimmora as well which means you can potentially avoid a Toxic Spike as well.
To address points # 2/3 unless you know the team or it is incredibly obvious that it is a screens team you probably should assume that Deoxys-S is a hazard stacking lead. This doesn't really change how you approach it. Taken from May 1630+ stats:
+----------------------------------------+
| Moves
| Stealth Rock 93.994%
| Taunt 91.392%
| Spikes 71.971%
| Magic Coat 55.400%
| Psycho Boost 24.625%
| Light Screen 11.874%
| Reflect 11.665%
| Thunder Wave 8.789%
| Knock Off 7.207%
| Ice Beam 3.991%
| Other 19.093%
+----------------------------------------+
I think you really are undervaluing how much being able to Taunt the Dark-types helps. It means that Arceus-Dark can't Wisp your Zacian-C or Taunt whatever other teammate and the opponent is forced into an uncomfortable situtation. Using Zacian-C as an example, it can get a free SD since Foul Play won't OHKO at +3. So you either have a fully healthy Zacian-C at +3 behind a screen because the Arceus-Dark switched out or a low health Zacian-C because they decided to Foul Play calling your SD. In former it can live a hit from the Primal Groudon or Ho-Oh and trade with it, removing something big for some teammate. In the latter it is either OHKOing the Arceus-Dark with Play Rough / CC or forcing a tera which means that your Ultra Necrozma was just signficantly opened up. These sorts of interactions arn't possible with Grimmsnarl. Grimmsnarl is a screener that is good v Deoxys-S, but Deoxys-S is better v almost everything else. FWIW, my vote of Deoxys-S to B+ was entirely based around the hazard stacking sets and I'd rate the screens set somewhere around C+. I'm not particularly high on screens as a whole, but if I were to use them I'd go with Deoxys-S most of the time unless I'm fishing for some Bo1 tournament game.
Regieleki on the other hand has a couple of individual traits over both Grimmsnarl and Deoxys-S, but is far worse than either. I'm not aware of any plans for a mini slate anytime soon given that this was a full one, but even if there was I'd be very surprised if Regieleki recieved a vote above D. Again, in a vacuum, the ability to pivot is great, but Regieleki is almost never going to be able to do that. I brought up earlier how in practise Grimmsnarl is frequently blocked from pivoting, but Regieleki almost always is. Regieleki has no means whatsoever to harm Ground-types outside of booming and Primal Groudon is on most teams that arn't stall or pyspam. A lot of balance and BO teams will run a second in Arceus-Ground or Zygarde and triple ground teams do exist.
Yeah pivoting is invaluable, but when you can't actually pivot in most games it isn't. Sure Rapid Spin is something, but Regieleki doesn't have the bulk, even when assisted by screens to set them and spin. I'd honestly consider Tapu Koko as a screens setter long before using Regieleki. It can at least pivot with U-turn and remove hazards or chose to at least pressure the Ground-types with Toxic.
As always, fantastic post. A lot of the points you made are fantastic, and things that I had not considered. However, there are a few things I take issue with. First of all, I find screens to be fantastic in this metagame. They enable setup sweepers so well.
Second of all, I do find that Regieleki regularly comes in twice in a game, sometimes three times. While it is not the bulkiest thing in the world, the screens it sets up obviously help it live longer. And while the Ground switch is problematic, switching into Precipice Blades with Reflect up isn't really that bad.
I will say that, in my opinion, the most important reason to have hazard control is to handle Sticky Web teams, because while chip damage matters, if webs is never cleared, you often just lose. And while this would be a more niche reason in a different tier, Sticky Web teams are actually pretty decent in this tier. Regieleki is so fast, that it often can clear hazards even with webs up.
While Tapu Koko might be more threatening, it is much slower, and therefore capable of being killed before it sets screens unless it runs sash over Light Clay. Anyways, the fact that you are blocked from pivoting by Ground types is not a mark against Regieleki compared to Deoxys-Speed, because Deoxys-Speed notably can only pivot with Teleport as long as you have Light Clay, which leaves you vulnerable to being killed. In practice, pivot is more useful during the second time you are in, where Groudon might be dead, especially if they switched it in to stop your pivot. And if your opponent leads with Groudon and kills you turn 1, that means you don't give your opponent a turn when switching, which makes it harder for your opponent to stop you. And if you don't want to be blocked by the obvious Ground switch, you can just switch out manually.
Overall, while you make some great points, I still think there is merit to the Regieleki pick, though you definitely made me reconsider whether or not Grimmsnarl is better than Deoxys-Speed.
Anyways, before I end this post, I want to thank you for always being there to criticize me. Your knowledge of the metagame is much greater than mine, and your posts always help me to understand the tier better, and allow me to see the things blocked by my own inexperience, which ultimately makes posts like these better and less stupid. (If this comes off as bitter and sarcastic, know that is not my intent. I am not the best at communicating, so sorry if this sounded like that, I genuinely mean what I said.)
S-[4] -> S-[2]
A[2] ->A+[3]
A[4] -> A[2]
A-[1] -> A[4]
A-[2] -> A[5]
A-[3] -> A-[1]
B+ -> A-[2]
B+ -> A-[3]
B -> A-[4]
B -> B+
B -> B+
B -> B+
B- -> B
B- -> B
C+ -> B-
B- -> B
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C -> C+
C -> C+
C -> C+
C- -> C+
C- -> C+
D -> C
UR -> C
S-[2]->S-[4]
A[5] ->A-[5]
A-[4] -> B+
A-[5] -> B+
A-[6] -> B+
B+ -> B-
B -> C+
B -> C+
B -> D
B- -> C
C+ -> C
C+ -> C-
C+ -> UR
C -> D
C -> D
C -> C-
C -> C-
C -> UR
C -> UR
C- -> D
C- ->UR
C- ->UR
/
Every voter has these as #2/3 and one can easily justify why they voted for one higher than the other. It just depends how one personally weighs different variables. Where I signficantly disagree with some voters is that either should be S+. Although I view Zygarde as slightly better than Eternatus, the opposite is a reasonable viewpoint even if it I disagree. The distinction between S and S+ for me is whether a Pokemon can fit on most teams (S) or whether you need a very good reason not to use it (S+). Neither Zygarde nor Eternatus rise to that level personally. I'd likely abolish S+ before moving either up.
Tested this a little bit and couldn't decide between C or C+ so figured abstaining was the best course of action as I didn't feel strongly either way.
I wasn't sure if it should be C- or D. Gholdengo definitely has a niche. Whether that niche of curbstomping specific fat Ho-Oh structures is enough to be ranked I'm not sure. Figured abstaining was the best course of action.
I can see the potential for C-. Traps most Eternatus sets and is immune to Overheat Primal Groudon. That is something. Similar to Gholdengo I wasn't sure if that is enough for Heatran to be ranked though I can see it fluctuating between C- and D. It seems like a mon someone will bring to a NDPL game and it will either do nothing or completely shut down a team.
Pretty much felt indifferent and had better things to do than test it. If enough voters thought it was worthy of C- that was fine by me.
It has a niche and is at least a usable and fun D rank. I'm not sure if it is enough to be ranked, but like the mons above I don't have a preference either way.
Arceus-Fairy (A-1 -> A4)
Arceus-Water (B+ -> A-4)
Arceus-Grass (C -> C+)
Arceus-Dragon (C+ -> C)
Arceus-Poison (C -> D)
Arceus-Ground (S-1)
Arceus-Dark (A+2)
Calyrex-I (B+)
Arceus-Ghost (B)
Giratina (B-)
Shuckle (B-)
Chansey (B-)
Flutter Mane (C+)
Chi-Yu (C+)
Dialga (C+)
Arceus-Flying (C)
Arceus-Steel (C)
Kingambit (C)
Arceus-Rock (C)
Melmetal (C)
Cresselia (C-)
Hatterene (C-)
Zamazenta (UR -> D)
Darkrai (D -> UR)