The Best and Worst Boss Fights in Pokemon

[Ernesto]

No I mean, you can grind if you need it. I've never need it even if she's tough of course ! Starmie was harder for in Gen 1

You bring an interesting point with Starmie, someone's prolly already mentioned it in the thread but RBY Misty does tend to get overlooked as one of the hardest bosses. She uses a solid OU mon with a really high speed tier (which means increased crit rate), high Special with a strong STAB move by that point in the game in BubbleBeam and, as if that wasn't enough, has X Defend to patch up its lower stat. So why does she get overlooked? If I had to guess biggest reason would be the terrible AI which makes it use Tackle or X Defend against stuff it can destroy with BubbleBeam such as Pikachu, or not use X Defend when fighting stuff such as Clefable or Mega Punch Wartortle. Otherwise your best bet would be to get one of the Grass-types and put it to sleep/poison it to slowly defeat it because even Tackle can put a hurt with its crit rate (or grind for Gyarados to just pummel it).

In FRLG Starmie has an improved moveset with Swift and RECOVER but Bite being super-effective and Sleep Powder coming earlier (and crit rate no longer accounting for base Speed) does somewhat even it out. Still tho, for an early game boss she has to be one of the scariest.

Edit: I just checked earlier in the thread and they mention Seismic Toss as a way to beat her, don't remember actually using it but it's definitely a good option if less intuitive than hitting Starmie with super-effective moves.
Anyway my main point was that one would think she'd be higher up on the list if many more kids had been traumatized by their starter Pikachu being destroyed despite the apparent type advantage—which isn't the case unlike with Whitney's Miltank.

 

[bdt2002]

Too bad after you beat her she starts crying like an infant, to the point you almost don't even get the badge. Like, seriously, it's been a LOOONNNGGG time since I've played HGSS, but I'm pretty sure after you beat her she doesn't give you the badge no matter how many times you try to talk to her and what you're supposed to do is try to leave the gym until the guy at the entrance stops you because you haven't gotten your badge yet and then go back and talk to her to get it. ... Are you kidding me? Seriously, I know that it may not seem that bad, especially since it takes no more than a minute, and Clair's situation is WAY worse, but the fact that even happens in the first place is beyond stupid. You're a Gym Leader for crying out loud, why are you acting like such a spoiled brat. At the very least they didn't carry that aspect of her over to the anime.

While she doesn't look as young as, say, Bugsy, my personal head-canon for why she acted this way is that she's a newer Gym Leader in a big city that's far away from where she might have been raised, and that as a combination of the stress of moving to a big city and the stress of Trainers frequently taking her for granted, she has a rather unfortunate emotional instability that she has to try and hide in public. If you were a newer Gym Leader who Trainers were taking for granted only to actually lose against said Trainers, thus adding validation to their arguments... you'd probably be pretty upset too. I'm not trying to defend Whitney's behavior, but in-game I can totally understand where she's coming from. Moving to a big city at such a young age before she had time to learn how to act in public can absolutely do that to a person, though I don't speak from experience as much as I'm just analyzing a fictional character in a video game for kids.

That being said, this argument only gets stronger when you compare Whitney to Clair, someone who is not only older than Whitney more than likely, but also runs the Pokémon Gym where she more than likely grew up. Right out of the gate Clair has two less excuses to act the way she does compared to Whitney, and it brings into question where Clair may have picked up her behavior from. This is just another head-canon, but it's possible her behavior may be reflective of Lance, someone Clair has to look up to yet himself doesn't always act on his own teachings. Lance's Kanto Elite Four iteration notably has a bit more of a cocky demeanor than his Johto Champion iteration, so while Lance himself may have matured a bit in those three years between games, Clair herself may still be in the middle of that developmental learning process. After all, it's not like a three-year-old is running the Blackthorn Gym and that she wasn't born yet at the time of the Kanto games.

 

[MoonlightRose]

Too bad after you beat her she starts crying like an infant, to the point you almost don't even get the badge. Like, seriously, it's been a LOOONNNGGG time since I've played HGSS, but I'm pretty sure after you beat her she doesn't give you the badge no matter how many times you try to talk to her and what you're supposed to do is try to leave the gym until the guy at the entrance stops you because you haven't gotten your badge yet and then go back and talk to her to get it. ... Are you kidding me? Seriously, I know that it may not seem that bad, especially since it takes no more than a minute, and Clair's situation is WAY worse, but the fact that even happens in the first place is beyond stupid. You're a Gym Leader for crying out loud, why are you acting like such a spoiled brat. At the very least they didn't carry that aspect of her over to the anime.

Isn't it the trainer just below her that stops you?

 

[bdt2002]

You bring an interesting point with Starmie, someone's prolly already mentioned it in the thread but RBY Misty does tend to get overlooked as one of the hardest bosses. She uses a solid OU mon with a really high speed tier (which means increased crit rate), high Special with a strong STAB move by that point in the game in BubbleBeam and, as if that wasn't enough, has X Defend to patch up its lower stat. So why does she get overlooked? If I had to guess biggest reason would be the terrible AI which makes it use Tackle or X Defend against stuff it can destroy with BubbleBeam such as Pikachu, or not use X Defend when fighting stuff such as Clefable or Mega Punch Wartortle. Otherwise your best bet would be to get one of the Grass-types and put it to sleep/poison it to slowly defeat it because even Tackle can put a hurt with its crit rate (or grind for Gyarados to just pummel it).

In FRLG Starmie has an improved moveset with Swift and RECOVER but Bite being super effective and Sleep Powder coming earlier (and crit rate no longer accounting for base Speed) does somewhat even it out. Still tho, for an early game boss she has to be one of the scariest.

Sorry if this appears as a double post; I'm guessing that if they were to be one post it would have become too long to send through or something. That being said, Misty's situation with her Starmie always reminded me of another second-tier Gym Leader, that being Gardenia and her Roserade. Both of these Pokémon feel like they should be way, way too strong for that early in their respective games, but for one reason or another each of them end up feeling perfectly manageable. By the time Gen 4 rolled around on the DS, Game Freak had enough time to work on the AI of in-game opponents compared to the older installments and especially Gen 1's in-game AI mechanics. Perhaps in an effort to compensate for the otherwise crazy idea of a Gym #2 Roserade, there's a bit more options for counterplay to the Grass-Type here than there would have been for Misty and her Starmie in the Kanto games, should each Gym Leader be given the same AI patterns. The similarities only continue when you remember that Water and Grass are both super-effective against two of the Starter Pokémon options, those being Charmeleon and Prinplup respectively.

 

[Original Dragon Arkvelza]

Isn't it the trainer just below her that stops you?

Like I said, I haven't played HGSS in a very long time.

 

[pika pal]

So a question about the Ultra Necrozma fight (and probably extends to other fights using the mechanic): Are the Stat boosts coded as actual stat stages in-game, or just a separate status in-game? Like if you tried to debuff Ultra Necrozma with Intimidate, would you need to trigger it 6 or 7 times to flatten it out?

Mostly wondering because if Clear Smog/Haze worked on this boss, that's another knock against the list of cheese methods that make me call it a bad boss fight (i.e. it's unfairly hard if you play it as intended, but completely neutered if you know it and break it in advance without the surprise/blind factor). The other thing that makes it lame for me in concept is that it's JUST a numbers game. The boss has no status to play around, no supporting Pokemon (imagine Ultra Beasts as company ala the Totem Pokemon for a more-reasonably-leveled Necrozma), doesn't play with shifting between forms to affect its typing, etc. There is nothing to this boss fight besides shoving one tower with bigger numbers than it can shove you with, and the solution to item stalling was to just make the numbers too big for most Pokemon to survive long enough to make progress in between uses anyway.

Pokemon's standard singles system doesn't lend very well to this kind of Boss design, because as a lot of players can attest to, there's not really a consequence or difficulty to using one Pokemon that runs over the opponent's team instead of multiple members, since winning a match-up denies the opponent an action that hampers "group effort" tactics.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Am I the only one here who unironically really likes the Whitney battle? The difficulty spike isn’t quite as bad as some make it out to be- Miltank’s Rollout is noticeably less problematic for Bayleef and Croconaw teams than it is for Quilava teams, for instance- and it does a pretty good job teaching the player that additional team strategy and planning may be required for harder battles compared to the first two Gyms where you can generally get by spamming your super-effective STAB with little effort.

Thematically is where I think this battle is strongest, though. Think about it for a second- imagine you’re playing through Johto for the very first time again. You’re coming off of the first two Gyms and a rival fight in Azalea, only to be greeted with this random “pretty girl” Gym Leader who specializes in what, up to this point is probably the most bland and vanilla Type in the game and stays in a Gym whose puzzle is just to navigate a Clefairy-shaped maze. To some extent, it’s almost like the game wants you to take her for granted, and brush her off as another easy early-game Gym battle… only to come across this random, unintimidating cow Pokémon you’ve never seen before that ends up sweeping at least half of your team. This how you teach generations of children a lesson to not underestimate a weak-looking opponent and such a “vanilla” Pokémon type.

I've literally never had significant trouble with Whitney. And I've played those games countless times with Cyndaquil as my starter (and sometimes sole team member) nine times out of ten. I've never even used Geodude or the in-game trade Machop in a playthrough IIRC.Sure she's beaten me once or twice, but I think her difficulty has been memed to the point where people overhype and/or misremember how difficult she is.

Too bad after you beat her she starts crying like an infant, to the point you almost don't even get the badge. Like, seriously, it's been a LOOONNNGGG time since I've played HGSS, but I'm pretty sure after you beat her she doesn't give you the badge no matter how many times you try to talk to her and what you're supposed to do is try to leave the gym until the guy at the entrance stops you because you haven't gotten your badge yet and then go back and talk to her to get it. ... Are you kidding me? Seriously, I know that it may not seem that bad, especially since it takes no more than a minute, and Clair's situation is WAY worse, but the fact that even happens in the first place is beyond stupid. You're a Gym Leader for crying out loud, why are you acting like such a spoiled brat. At the very least they didn't carry that aspect of her over to the anime.

I mean, her soubriquet as a gym leader is "The Incredibly Pretty Girl". The whole point is that she's supposed to be quite shallow and immature - before she battles the player she tells them "everyone was into Pokemon, so I got into it too", as if it was just a passing fad that she happened to be quite good at and basically lucked into being the gym leader by virtue of her popularity and good fortune. She's indicated to be a competent trainer - her underling tells you that she's never been able to defeat her no matter how many times she tries - but just lacking in composure and authority (the same underling says "she always cries when she loses", in a way which suggests it's not remotely a serious problem and more for show than anything else). The Adventures manga reinforces this by portraying her as the weakest of all the 16 gym leaders; even Janine is indicated to be stronger.

It's kind of a sexist stereotype and what some might even call "toxic femininity" if they were so inclined, but... hey, it was the early 2000s. Different time and all that. Still, all three of the female Johto leaders are pretty distinct personalities which I think is neat - Erika, Roxanne, and Winona are all basically complete nonentities in their first appearances.

Isn't it the trainer just below her that stops you?

In GSC you're free to leave without the badge and come back whenever you like, but in HGSS the trainer won't let you walk past her until you've spoken to Whitney again.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

So a question about the Ultra Necrozma fight (and probably extends to other fights using the mechanic): Are the Stat boosts coded as actual stat stages in-game, or just a separate status in-game? Like if you tried to debuff Ultra Necrozma with Intimidate, would you need to trigger it 6 or 7 times to flatten it out?

Mostly wondering because if Clear Smog/Haze worked on this boss, that's another knock against the list of cheese methods that make me call it a bad boss fight (i.e. it's unfairly hard if you play it as intended, but completely neutered if you know it and break it in advance without the surprise/blind factor). The other thing that makes it lame for me in concept is that it's JUST a numbers game. The boss has no status to play around, no supporting Pokemon (imagine Ultra Beasts as company ala the Totem Pokemon for a more-reasonably-leveled Necrozma), doesn't play with shifting between forms to affect its typing, etc. There is nothing to this boss fight besides shoving one tower with bigger numbers than it can shove you with, and the solution to item stalling was to just make the numbers too big for most Pokemon to survive long enough to make progress in between uses anyway.

Pokemon's standard singles system doesn't lend very well to this kind of Boss design, because as a lot of players can attest to, there's not really a consequence or difficulty to using one Pokemon that runs over the opponent's team instead of multiple members, since winning a match-up denies the opponent an action that hampers "group effort" tactics.

I think they're actual stat changes.

I'd know because my strategy against it was to use a Focus Sash Malamar and use Topsy-Turvy on it first thing...and that actually worked.

 

[Hugin]

It's particularly egregious that the original GSC has the majority of the female gym leaders be difficult to get the badge from. Claire and Whitney both get "emotional" and refuse to give it to you. Misty and Jasmine are both MIA when you visit their gyms. Sabrina, Janine, and Erika are the only ones doing their jobs. Compare that to the male leaders, who all except for Blue are present at their gyms and give you the badge right away.

It's partly coincidence, I'm sure, but I think the dev's biases are particularly obvious in that gen.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

You bring an interesting point with Starmie, someone's prolly already mentioned it in the thread but RBY Misty does tend to get overlooked as one of the hardest bosses.

That's more of a recent development, people definitely had her almost on par with Whitney back in the day.

Statistically, she's harder than Whitney too, but it's a lot easier to counter her.

That being said, Misty's situation with her Starmie always reminded me of another second-tier Gym Leader, that being Gardenia and her Roserade. Both of these Pokémon feel like they should be way, way too strong for that early in their respective games, but for one reason or another each of them end up feeling perfectly manageable.

Does this look like the face of mercy?

Gardenia is nice on paper, but she gets folded by two of the most popular mons in the game. She's just another name on the list of people who get cooked by Pluck Staravia.

Also, she gets overshadowed by Jupiter and Fantina.

my problem with whitney is that it is the third gym leader in the game, and it is not balanced for that. with ultra nec, you at least had most of the game to prepare for that, and you had lots of tools at your disposal. with witney, you basically have to have one of just a few pokemon, or overlevel your pokemon. whitney's miltank is babies first ultra necrozma. an unkillable, unstopable monstrocity picking a fight with someone who just picked up the game. the dificulty spike might not be as severe as ultra necrozma, but if you made it to ultra necrozma, you at least have an understanding of how to play the game.

Whitney only really punishes people rushing through the game. Exploring a bit gets you a Fighting-type, a lot of TMs, including the Elemental Punches, and most importantly, Dig.

Dig single-handedly makes things a lot easier by giving people a pseudo-Protect to avoid getting folded by Rollout.

 

[Hugin]

I think there's also an element of...Whitney is deliberate. Miltank has solid all-around stats, a good movepool, and is generally punishing. Clefairy comes with Metronome and Encore to make savescumming harder. But she's not overleveled, there's counters available(Onix, Geodude, Machop), and there's reasonable powerspikes for your team nearby(Bug Catching Contest rewards, Headbutt, Elemental Punches). Whitney is a wall to tell people to catch additional team members and explore more.

Misty's Starmie sometimes feels like a mistake, like they didn't realize how good it was. She's not egregious, and if you're playing Yellow/Blue you've got options, but for kids who started with Squirtle/Charmander and haven't found a grass-type yet, unless they realize you can just ignore her and leave the city, she's a significant problem.

My personal choice for worst difficulty spike is still Wattson. Especially in Emerald, where he has 4 mons, 2 of which are fully evolved. Static and TWave can easily burn through berries if you're doing a no-items in combat run, or waste turns if you use items. Electric is easy to counter, except that there's almost no ground-types available now(Geodude, Nincada, and Marshtomp), and Grass mostly sucks(Nuzleaf, Seedot, and Grovyle). So really your only non-starter option is the Gen 1 rock you've used in every single game. His team's movesets are set up to be annoying and painful even if you do resist them, too. I'm not saying he's unbeatable, but when the route immediately after beating him gives Numel and Sandshrew, and you're within sight of Cacnea/Trapinch/Baltoy, having to catch a Geodude to beat him in almost every playthrough just feels bad, and trying to power through him with neutral hits feels worse.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

A lot of Whitney's difficulty stems from randomness, whether that's flinch/infatuation/Metronome RNG or just how effectively the AI plays. A single Stomp flinch or turn of infatuation can turn the tables on an otherwise solid Miltank answer, and if she decides that this battle she's actually gonna make use of Milk Drink then a lot of decent answers get much shakier. I personally tend to find her tough because if I'm replaying GSC/HGSS it's with Pokemon restrictions, no items in battle, no out-levelling the boss's ace, and only using as many mons as the boss does, which I'll concede is not a ruleset that should be designed around!

(Also, while Geodude and Onix are the safest answers, I don't think it's fair to suggest that the player is expected to put one on their team if they're struggling with Whitney, given that a) they'd have to backtrack to Union Cave if they haven't already caught one and b) the highest level they're available at is 8. Like that's not a realistic 'solution' for a first-time playthrough)

Wattson's difficulty works on a similar axis in the sense that confusion and paralysis hax can screw you over even with a solid plan of attack and Manectric's difficulty depends in part on how many turns the AI spends using Howl against an opponent that would fall to two Shock Waves.

 

[Cancel cult]

I think there's also an element of...Whitney is deliberate. Miltank has solid all-around stats, a good movepool, and is generally punishing. Clefairy comes with Metronome and Encore to make savescumming harder. But she's not overleveled, there's counters available(Onix, Geodude, Machop), and there's reasonable powerspikes for your team nearby(Bug Catching Contest rewards, Headbutt, Elemental Punches). Whitney is a wall to tell people to catch additional team members and explore more.

Misty's Starmie sometimes feels like a mistake, like they didn't realize how good it was. She's not egregious, and if you're playing Yellow/Blue you've got options, but for kids who started with Squirtle/Charmander and haven't found a grass-type yet, unless they realize you can just ignore her and leave the city, she's a significant problem.

My personal choice for worst difficulty spike is still Wattson. Especially in Emerald, where he has 4 mons, 2 of which are fully evolved. Static and TWave can easily burn through berries if you're doing a no-items in combat run, or waste turns if you use items. Electric is easy to counter, except that there's almost no ground-types available now(Geodude, Nincada, and Marshtomp), and Grass mostly sucks(Nuzleaf, Seedot, and Grovyle). So really your only non-starter option is the Gen 1 rock you've used in every single game. His team's movesets are set up to be annoying and painful even if you do resist them, too. I'm not saying he's unbeatable, but when the route immediately after beating him gives Numel and Sandshrew, and you're within sight of Cacnea/Trapinch/Baltoy, having to catch a Geodude to beat him in almost every playthrough just feels bad, and trying to power through him with neutral hits feels worse.

i feel the opposite. i dont think they considered that they were throwing a fully evolved brazen bull at a bunch of children who just picked up the game. these kids are stupid, and dont even know the full typechart by heart, how are they going to know what pokemon to use.

 

[Hugin]

(Also, while Geodude and Onix are the safest answers, I don't think it's fair to suggest that the player is expected to put one on their team if they're struggling with Whitney, given that a) they'd have to backtrack to Union Cave if they haven't already caught one and b) the highest level they're available at is 8. Like that's not a realistic 'solution' for a first-time playthrough)

True, but the previous 2 gyms were Flying and Bug. The game has already been pushing you towards those two mons(and I don't think it's a coincidence that Machop ALSO resists Rollout). Plus, she's much more reasonable to just spam down, especially given this is when you get Headbutt/Elemental Punches/Rollout/Dig available as TMs. Like I said, she feels threatening, but in a "You should have an actual team at this point" way and when they're giving you tools to make sure that's the case.

Whereas Misty is just a random difficulty spike and Wattson is just BEFORE you get the tools you'd want to deal with him. Misty specifically, I think they intended players to skip her if they've got a bad matchup, which would be reasonable, except this is Gen 1 and players don't know bosses can be skipped yet. If they made the route around her a bit more obvious I'd be calling her interesting game design.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I think they intended players to skip her if they've got a bad matchup, which would be reasonable, except this is Gen 1 and players don't know bosses can be skipped yet.

Why would you think that players wouldn't just explore the map?

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Why would you think that players wouldn't just explore the map?

I mean, your only prior experience at this point is Brock, who has an NPC stationed at the exit of Pewter City who won't let you pass and literally leads you to the door of the gym until you've beaten him. Given that, it's hardly unreasonable for players to assume "oh, I have to beat the gym leader to progress".

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I mean, your only prior experience at this point is Brock, who has an NPC stationed at the exit of Pewter City who won't let you pass and literally leads you to the door of the gym until you've beaten him. Given that, it's hardly unreasonable for players to assume "oh, I have to beat the gym leader to progress".

One of the first reflex responses to losing a battle in an RPG should be "Am I underpowered? Do I need to find a spot to level up before attempting this battle again?" And since Cerulean City blocks your return path to Mt Moon, literally the only other option at your disposal is north via Nugget Bridge, where Blue also stops you for a required encounter, but the fact that Blue's team is several levels below Misty's should be a pretty overt hint that he is the path of least resistance.

The fact that the Oddish/Bellsprout line also lies to the north followed immediately by about 10 trainers who serve as an ample Exp source to get them up to speed is also probably not an accident.

Like, I'm not surprised that anyone would lose to Misty. I just find it hard to believe that the first response after a loss would be to just... try the exact same thing again rather than look for other options. It's another one of those things that very much reads like "Pokemon was the first video game I played and I just didn't yet have the experience to think about this critically."

 

[QuentinQuonce]

One of the first reflex responses to losing a battle in an RPG should be "Am I underpowered? Do I need to find a spot to level up before attempting this battle again?" And since Cerulean City blocks your return path to Mt Moon, literally the only other option at your disposal is north via Nugget Bridge, where Blue also stops you for a required encounter, but the fact that Blue's team is several levels below Misty's should be a pretty overt hint that he is the path of least resistance.

The fact that the Oddish/Bellsprout line also lies to the north followed immediately by about 10 trainers who serve as an ample Exp source to get them up to speed is also probably not an accident.

Like, I'm not surprised that anyone would lose to Misty. I just find it hard to believe that the first response after a loss would be to just... try the exact same thing again rather than look for other options. It's another one of those things that very much reads like "Pokemon was the first video game I played and I just didn't yet have the experience to think about this critically."

Exploring Route 24/25 was not what I meant, the point I was responding to was skipping Misty altogether (which nothing indicates you can do - I wouldn't be surprised to learn some longtime players had no idea it was possible)

 

[Ernesto]

Yea, I don't think game designers really wanted you to skip her (not skip her à la Brawly since you need her badge to Cut trees obviously) and go south because it's not super evident that the way through the Dig house opens up after helping Bill, rather they mostly went "Look, in this patch of grass you can find one of those Grass-types you saw that girl in Mt. Moon use! Get one to fight Water-types if you picked Charmander"—except that unlike with Lt. Surge and Diglett they weren't even that good in the fight unless evolved.
So I'm guessing they just didn't realize how strong Starmie was for that point in the game.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Misty specifically, I think they intended players to skip her if they've got a bad matchup, which would be reasonable, except this is Gen 1 and players don't know bosses can be skipped yet. If they made the route around her a bit more obvious I'd be calling her interesting game design.

The intended route is blatantly designed to funnel people towards Bill. The fact that there are several trainers and Grass mons up north is not a coincidence.

Misty is likely intentionally made to be strong to push players to actively explore there instead of noticing how stupid Cerulean City's design is.

Think about it, they went the extra mile to give her of all people an X Defend. When have you seen a leader use an item like that again?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Misty is likely intentionally made to be strong to push players to actively explore there instead of noticing how stupid Cerulean City's design is.

This is something that I'm always subconsciously aware of but never actually thinking about.

None of the roads lead into the city proper. It's the silliest arrangement of map guardrails.

 

[ant4456]

Pokemon has always been one of the guiltiest RPG series for "the town's layout makes no fucking sense". Like you boot up FF6 for the first time and it tries to make this area feel more believable layout wise, and then Pokemon games are just "Here is 5 buildings and also everything is outta whack.

I'm a fan of New Mauville especially because it feels like more of a real city than the RSE Mauville imo