Yeah between the fact that there are now 1000+ mons (meaning you could optimize a really niche shitmon to beat things like Mega Ray, although Zacian admittedly tested the limits of that) and mechanic changes that actually have PVP in mind, nothing will ever be on the level of RBY Mewtwo. The ironic thing about Mewtwo's absurd power level, though, is that it has a harder time just coming in and clicking buttons the way mray or zacian could, as every team is by design built to limit Mewtwo's ability to perform its role. I don't have enough experience playing RBY lower tiers to say if this applies there too, but the chess analogy is an apt one for both OU and Ubers.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
At the time of writing this post, my rationale of Black 2 & White 2 being 3DS titles was based on the idea that, as the first attempt at sequels in the main series since Gen 2, there’s not as much here as what we could have seen. I didn’t do a very good job of clarifying this at all so that’s on me, but I was trying to approach this part of the post from the point of view of “Gen 6 could have been the sequels to Gen 5” should Black 2 & White 2 have been delayed to, say, mid-to-late 2013. I don’t really care for the fact that these sequels often feel like what “Pokémon Grey” would have been.
In practice, this wouldn’t really have worked as well as I would have hoped since this would have thrown X & Y’s plans completely off schedule. I still think Black 2 & White 2 had enough potential to be their own full generation should they have wanted to go the sequel route on 3DS, but like you said, what we got was realistically probably the best of both worlds anyway. Going against both of my own posts for a moment, that’s assuming Black 2 & White 2 would have even sold enough to warrant being their own generation in the first place, regardless of when the Hoenn remakes were released relative to these games and X & Y.
TLDR; I have no idea what I was talking about and I appreciate you for wanting to help enlighten me on the subject.
Last edited:
Unsure whether this is unpopular or not, but I think every Legendary/Mythical should have a signature move - it just makes sense. So obviously I liked that the Lake Guardians and Phione gained Signature moves in L:A, that were kept in S/V.
There are a few exceptions where it canonically makes sense not to have a signature move, which I’d be ok with. Namely Mew (learns all moves), Type: Null (unevolved and power restricted), Cosmog and Cosmoem (unevolved and unpowered), Meltan (unevolved, evolves by fusing) and Kubfu (unevolved, hasn’t trained yet).
These are the current Legends and Mythicals without a signature move.
Legendary Birds (Kantonian forms)
Mew
Legendary Beasts
Celebi
Legendary Giants (Regis - apparently thats the official term)
Swords of Justice* (Excluding Keldeo, which has its own move. They formerly had Sacred Sword which was later given wide distribution - they should probably just share Keldeo’s move at this point imo)
Type: Null
Cosmog/Cosmoem
Meltan
Kubfu
Spectrier/Glastrier
Calyrex (unfused - is already stated to have power over bountiful harvests in that state)
The Lousy Three
Slight tangent - it bothers me that Blacephalon is the only UB with a Signature Move (do all or none). Similarly with Iron Treads amongst the non-legendary Paradoxes (ofc the Beast and Sword Paradoxes should have them), either do all or none. Or hell do just Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant - counterparts seen as above the others.
There are a few exceptions where it canonically makes sense not to have a signature move, which I’d be ok with. Namely Mew (learns all moves), Type: Null (unevolved and power restricted), Cosmog and Cosmoem (unevolved and unpowered), Meltan (unevolved, evolves by fusing) and Kubfu (unevolved, hasn’t trained yet).
These are the current Legends and Mythicals without a signature move.
Legendary Birds (Kantonian forms)
Mew
Legendary Beasts
Celebi
Legendary Giants (Regis - apparently thats the official term)
Swords of Justice* (Excluding Keldeo, which has its own move. They formerly had Sacred Sword which was later given wide distribution - they should probably just share Keldeo’s move at this point imo)
Type: Null
Cosmog/Cosmoem
Meltan
Kubfu
Spectrier/Glastrier
Calyrex (unfused - is already stated to have power over bountiful harvests in that state)
The Lousy Three
Slight tangent - it bothers me that Blacephalon is the only UB with a Signature Move (do all or none). Similarly with Iron Treads amongst the non-legendary Paradoxes (ofc the Beast and Sword Paradoxes should have them), either do all or none. Or hell do just Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant - counterparts seen as above the others.
Entei technically has a signature move in Sacred Fire. Which it gets from Ho-oh. ....
Spectrier/Glastrier/Calyrex IMO, shouldn't have signature moves. They are meant to be powerful together (Calyrex states in game it's weaker), so giving them sig moves would defeat that whole storyline.
The Loyal Three I don't think should have signature moves, they are meant to be weak. And since signature moves are meant to be powerful, defeats the purpose.
The others I am up for though. Especially the regis, those feel like they should always of had sig moves (Draco and eleki already do).
Yeah I’d rather they remove Sacred Fire from Entei.
Loyal Three should have some weaker version of Pecharunt’s imo, along with their abilities as a symbol of the power they received from it.
re: Calyrex and its steeds I think it’d be fine to have the steeds still have Glacial Lance and Astral Barrage, ala Reshiram/Zekrom.
Calyrex also similar to Kyurem even in its weakened state should have something Grass typed.
Feels like they’re just poorer versions of the other (Tao, Light trios) fusion mons. I mean, before learning about the lore etc, if you just showed me images of the 3 I’d assume Calyrex is some sort of Legend/Mythical but the horses could definitely just be generic mons for me.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
In Gen II Ancientpower was learned (by level) only by fossil Pokemon, Corsola, Ho-oh, Lugia, Mew, and Celebi.
Obviously Ho-oh and Lugia had their own signature moves, but I quite liked this thematically - it makes sense that only "ancient" Pokemon would be the ones to learn such a rare move, and emphasised the rarity of all those Pokemon. It matters less at this point, admittedly, since we're at a point where they just cut a bunch of moves out per game, but it'd be cool to see similar moves restricted to select groupings of Pokemon who, while not directly connected, have a broad association.
Mew of course did later get a signature move in Gen VII in Genesis Supernova, which I'm actually surprised wasn't "translated" into a regular move like Kommo-o's Clangorous Soulblaze was.
Side note, I'd forgotten how crappy Aurora Beam was. It was added to Suicune's moveset in Crystal and I'd always thought of it as a quite powerful move because only a couple of other species get it (Remoraid, Shellder, Seel, and Vaporeon learn it naturally while a few other species get it via breeding). I know it's a flavour move for Suicune but jeez it sucks compared to Ice Beam.
...which is probably why Ice Beam is so hard to get in Gen II, come to think of it.
Yeah, considering the other three literally teach Keldeo Secret Sword you'd think they'd know how to use it too...
There are a few examples of Pokemon getting a signature move but their counterpart(s) not having one - Galarian Weezing has a signature move but Kantonian Weezing doesn't. Hitmonlee had a bunch of kicking moves that were all its own for a while, but Hitmonchan never had an equivalent punching move - even Mach Punch was shared with other species from the word go. As noted, Regieleki and Regidrago are the only ones of their group to get a signature move; Tepig was the only Unova starter to initially get one, and some psuedo-legendaries got one (Dragonite, Metagross, Kommo-o, Dragapult, Baxcalibur) while others didn't (Tyranitar, Salamence, Hydreigon, Kalosian Goodra).
Age-old question really, but in these instances I wonder whether it's a case of "we couldn't really think of one" or deliberate nerfing - Stakataka for instance didn't really need a signature move IMO, but then on the other hand Tyranitar could definitely have used one in GSC. Hard to say.
It's definitely the case that they just don't seem to be bothered going back and giving older Pokemon their own moves - pretty much none of the original forms of regional Pokemon like Braviary or Stunfisk get their own move to match their counterparts. Unless you already had a signature move (like Exeggutor and Marowak) you're shit out of luck.
Scanning Bulbapedia's article on signature moves... Kinesis has been the Abra line's signature move forever, and hey the Machop line also had a signature move - Vital Throw, which... mm, yeah, they were the only ones to learn in Gen II. They surrendered that pretty much immediately though (I'd have thought Cross Chop was more associated with that line but turns out Mankey had that from the off as well! Interesting).
Yeah, unfortunately.
In Legends: Arceus though, apart from giving the new evos and regional forms signature moves, they also gave signature moves to the Lake Guardians and the Forces of Nature. (in fact all the moves introduced in L: A are sig moves, besides Power Shift, which isn’t a thing anymore) So that gives me hope for any non-Kalos Legends that get featured in the upcoming games.
I’d also forgotten Mew had that Z-move - a regular version of that would be ok I guess - preferably a little stronger than Psychic (c’mon lets make it 100 to fit the theme) + the terrain effect.
Generally they only really look back at old legends when it comes to giving them signature moves retroactively when a game that revisits their old regions comes in and those legendaries are brought back into the spotlight.
ORAS was the first case where Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza, who didn't have signature moves previously, got them with Origin Pulse, Precipice Blades, and Dragon Ascent. Now Legends: Arceus did it with the lake guardians getting Mystical Power and the four Forces of Nature getting variant signature moves apiece. The latter doesn't originate from DPP but was in this game with the explanation that Hisui (ancient Sinnoh) is actually their original region.
Since Legends: Arceus had the Forces of Nature show up and give them signature moves, maybe an opportunity will present itself for other sub-legendary trios to show up in Legends: Z-A and maybe get their own signature moves. Maybe the Swords of Justice or something like that.
ORAS was the first case where Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza, who didn't have signature moves previously, got them with Origin Pulse, Precipice Blades, and Dragon Ascent. Now Legends: Arceus did it with the lake guardians getting Mystical Power and the four Forces of Nature getting variant signature moves apiece. The latter doesn't originate from DPP but was in this game with the explanation that Hisui (ancient Sinnoh) is actually their original region.
Since Legends: Arceus had the Forces of Nature show up and give them signature moves, maybe an opportunity will present itself for other sub-legendary trios to show up in Legends: Z-A and maybe get their own signature moves. Maybe the Swords of Justice or something like that.
See post above haha
Man though, Swords of Justice have gotten a lot of focus lately. SwSh quest, Paradox mons, originals with Snacksworth in S/V as well. I’d almost be surprised if they appeared in Z but they do fit the French aesthetic.
So minor thing before I delve into this, I believe Steel Roller is only IT signature because of distribution cuts, so will have to see if they stick to that in future appearances.
As far as the others, I'm on the fence about Trios receiving Signature moves, at least if they have a Trio Master, because the marketing tends to treat them as a unit that signature moves cut into a bit (I dislike Entei alone getting Sacred Fire or Regieleki/Drago having Sigs for this reason). I also think abilities are a reasonable enough stand-in for abilities with things like Toxic Chain that I wish they'd explore a bit more, especially since in that case the three users all have distinct gameplay styles that capitalize in different ways (Bulky Offense, Wallbreaker, and Utility Support without offense).
My one exception to this rule is if there's a Trio Master that all 3 members could reasonably take after, such as Lugia's Aeroblast to the Birds or Pecharunt's Malignant Chain for the Loyal Three (even if only 1 is particularly good at using it).
I can excuse Entei alone getting Sacred Fire, and not just for STAB reasons, as it used to not have much going for it compared to Raikou and Suicune even back in Gen 2, and Flare Blitz, while good enough, also sounds contradictive given that Entei and the other used to be an unknown Pokémon before burned to death, then reborn by Ho-Oh. I will not mind Raikou and Suicune getting Sacred Fire even if Raikou can’t use it as effectively; Suicune at least can exploit it’s bulk by using Sacred Fire for Crocune sets.
Both Regieleki and Regidrago having a signature move and Ability though, yeah, this is pushing it, and it’s part of the issue of Special Snowflake Syndrome that was plaguing Pokémon since Gen 6. It’s especially bad as none of the original Golem Trio didn’t have a new signature move or Ability to compensate, or that Regigigas’ own signature Ability have done way too much harm for it. I understand that having a signature could help a Pokémon to stand out in regard of lore and all, but when numerous newer Pokémon have it at once, to various degree of success, it comes off as insecure from Game Freak’s part.
Regieleki and Regidrago come off as a new separate sub-duo of the group with the original Hoenn trio still being their own separate sub-trio.
The design ethos of the Galar Regis is quite antithetical to the original trio, and Eleki and Drago are more similar to each other than they are to the original Regis. The original Regis all have Clear Body as their ability and their stats are very much defensively oriented, with physical vs special, and then Registeel being the in-between member. All three also have a hidden ability. Meanwhile Regieleki and Regidrago have a more offensive build with signature abilities that boost their STABs, and their stats have the same values as Regirock and Regice but skewed towards offense with their 200 value being in HP for Drago and Speed for Eleki, since those two stats often have an inverse relationship with each other, while they have even 100 offenses and 50 Defenses.
That does make me wonder what a hypothetical Registeel-type member would look like, in terms of typing, ability flavor, and stats. Registeel has an 80/75/150/75/150/50 stat build, and a hypothetical Registeel to Eleki and Drago would need those exact values but arranged in a closer manner to Eleki and Drago.
But yeah that's a peculiar case. The new Regis are kind of a sub-group and the Regis hypothetically could form sub-groups with each other, with their unifying factor being "they were created by Regigigas", who is their universal master. Delving a bit into theorycrafting here, I think there's potential for at least four more Regis in a vacuum: besides the hypothetical Registeel equivalent for Eleki and Drago, there could be three more Regis with even more offensive builds where they hit extremely hard on one side of the spectrum. Like one that has 50/200/100/100/50/80, another that has 50/100/50/200/100/80, and their own Registeel equivalent that has 50/150/75/150/75/80 stat spread. In that case we would have six Regis, each with a 200 stat value in one of the six permanent stats: we already have four with Regirock (Defense), Regice (Special Defense), Regieleki (Speed), and Regidrago (HP), and two more for both Attack and Special Attack to complete the set, and then three Registeel types.
---
But that's just a ramble about that particular case. The Galarian birds are, like all regional forms, effectively their own new Pokemon in their own right, even moreso since the implication is that the Galarian birds may not actually be the same as Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres but just share the same namesake because they have vaguely similar powers.
Enamorus on the other hand was designed to complement the original Forces of Nature and was designed to complete the set, since they're based on the Four Symbols Beasts and they were always missing one, so Enamorus came in and completed the group, and all four got signature moves since they are complements to one another. Enamorus was a great way to complete the group and add to their lore in an interesting way.
The design ethos of the Galar Regis is quite antithetical to the original trio, and Eleki and Drago are more similar to each other than they are to the original Regis. The original Regis all have Clear Body as their ability and their stats are very much defensively oriented, with physical vs special, and then Registeel being the in-between member. All three also have a hidden ability. Meanwhile Regieleki and Regidrago have a more offensive build with signature abilities that boost their STABs, and their stats have the same values as Regirock and Regice but skewed towards offense with their 200 value being in HP for Drago and Speed for Eleki, since those two stats often have an inverse relationship with each other, while they have even 100 offenses and 50 Defenses.
That does make me wonder what a hypothetical Registeel-type member would look like, in terms of typing, ability flavor, and stats. Registeel has an 80/75/150/75/150/50 stat build, and a hypothetical Registeel to Eleki and Drago would need those exact values but arranged in a closer manner to Eleki and Drago.
But yeah that's a peculiar case. The new Regis are kind of a sub-group and the Regis hypothetically could form sub-groups with each other, with their unifying factor being "they were created by Regigigas", who is their universal master. Delving a bit into theorycrafting here, I think there's potential for at least four more Regis in a vacuum: besides the hypothetical Registeel equivalent for Eleki and Drago, there could be three more Regis with even more offensive builds where they hit extremely hard on one side of the spectrum. Like one that has 50/200/100/100/50/80, another that has 50/100/50/200/100/80, and their own Registeel equivalent that has 50/150/75/150/75/80 stat spread. In that case we would have six Regis, each with a 200 stat value in one of the six permanent stats: we already have four with Regirock (Defense), Regice (Special Defense), Regieleki (Speed), and Regidrago (HP), and two more for both Attack and Special Attack to complete the set, and then three Registeel types.
---
But that's just a ramble about that particular case. The Galarian birds are, like all regional forms, effectively their own new Pokemon in their own right, even moreso since the implication is that the Galarian birds may not actually be the same as Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres but just share the same namesake because they have vaguely similar powers.
Enamorus on the other hand was designed to complement the original Forces of Nature and was designed to complete the set, since they're based on the Four Symbols Beasts and they were always missing one, so Enamorus came in and completed the group, and all four got signature moves since they are complements to one another. Enamorus was a great way to complete the group and add to their lore in an interesting way.
Glastrier being able to use Glacial Lance when it’s missing the lancer sitting atop it doesn’t really make sense. I think they’d need to just make separate, weaker versions of Glacial Lance and Astral Barrage with new names / themes.
I feel like the idea was meant to be that the trio teach Keldeo everything they know, and then Keldeo surpasses them by using its hidden potential to develop an entirely new move. But I’ve also always been kinda underwhelmed by Keldeo’s whole gimmick — I feel like, if it’s really “surpassing” the trio, then surely its BST should go up? But Resolute Form is basically just a cosmetic form change.
If they wanted to give Secret Sword to the trio, maybe they could give it a unique effect when used by Keldeo in order to preserve the idea of it surpassing them? But at that point, part of me is like, “Then why not just invent a new signature move for the trio?”
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
You could have a sort of "Tri Attack" effect wherein if Cobalion, Terrakion, and Virizion use Secret Sword there's a 30% chance of a secondary effect unique to each of them, and if Keldeo uses it there's a separate 10% chance for either of those same three effects. Off the top of my head.
I've always took the "surpassing the trio" thing to be "it surpassed them in skill and proficiency", which I guess doesn't have to mean surpassing them in BST. I mean, you and I could be the same size and height and weight and so on but one of us might be a vastly better swordsman or archer or whatever, and that could be entirely down to things like instincts or disposition. I agree that it's always felt a bit underdeveloped, though.
An open world Pokemon game should have slow pacing. As in, really slow pacing.
My ideal Pokemon open world takes nods from BotW's Korok Seeds and has most cool Pokemon be behind puzzles, specifically observational puzzles that randomly happen throughout the world.
Something modern Pokemon has completely lost is the feeling of real growth in terms of Pokemon rarity. Getting good or rare Pokemon in any game past Gen 5 is super simple, because their spawns are everywhere. Static spawns, their pre-evos, and exp is abundant.
My ideal open world Pokemon is a game where it tries to emulate the most idealistic Pokemon experience: The feeling of exploring the world in a slow paced adventure on foot. I don't want Legends Arceus "catch 5 Pokemon in a minute" to be how open world Pokemon goes. I want a slow burn with dynamic systems, AI, trainers, weather, in-world events; I want the creature collection to be a focus, but not in quantity. Getting one Garchomp should be an accomplishment, not catching one every time you enter the same area. Bug catching influence high.
I want every person's Pokemon team to be more personalized and for people to spend a lot of the game just getting their team together, and for it to take active effort, and exploration, intuitiveness. I want NPCs that hint to rare Pokemon, and NPCs actually populating areas more if there is rarer Pokemon based on certain events.
My ideal Pokemon open world takes nods from BotW's Korok Seeds and has most cool Pokemon be behind puzzles, specifically observational puzzles that randomly happen throughout the world.
Something modern Pokemon has completely lost is the feeling of real growth in terms of Pokemon rarity. Getting good or rare Pokemon in any game past Gen 5 is super simple, because their spawns are everywhere. Static spawns, their pre-evos, and exp is abundant.
My ideal open world Pokemon is a game where it tries to emulate the most idealistic Pokemon experience: The feeling of exploring the world in a slow paced adventure on foot. I don't want Legends Arceus "catch 5 Pokemon in a minute" to be how open world Pokemon goes. I want a slow burn with dynamic systems, AI, trainers, weather, in-world events; I want the creature collection to be a focus, but not in quantity. Getting one Garchomp should be an accomplishment, not catching one every time you enter the same area. Bug catching influence high.
I want every person's Pokemon team to be more personalized and for people to spend a lot of the game just getting their team together, and for it to take active effort, and exploration, intuitiveness. I want NPCs that hint to rare Pokemon, and NPCs actually populating areas more if there is rarer Pokemon based on certain events.
On the topic of having things behind puzzles, I recently finished the first two Golden Sun games and it has me thinking. It felt like a significant part of why the puzzles in those games were enjoyable throughout (puts HMs to shame, that's for sure) was because of using a tile-based map with limited base player movement. It ends up communicating the player's objective and where to get started with little overhead. Cycling back to pokemon, while before I preferred grid overworlds just because I find dpad movement more comfortable, I now also have to wonder if the decrease in full-on puzzles for gyms and dungeons is a result of the change in overworld design.
Glacial Lance would still be fine imo, Glastrier can just use its horn.